…When ***** was supporting you in your work on LSD, you were the first in the UK working with the drug?
We were the first. It spread fairly rapidly. I would think probably by 1955 there were perhaps 10 centres using LSD.
When did he start supporting you at Powick?
As soon as he was appointed, which was, I think in 1953. And our first paper appeared in 1954. I actually started using LSD in late 1952, and we started the programme in 53. So it was as soon as he got to *****. Can’t remember the exact month.
To confirm, at the time that he started supporting you, you were the only place in the UK using LSD?
I think that’s true because until our first paper appeared, nobody knew anything about it
‘He supported’ means what, exactly?
That was the major physical support but he supported us in that sort of practical way but he also supported us in helping to make this rather strange treatment acceptable. So he clearly influenced colleagues in ******, and he was a very attractive outgoing person, who made friends easily, he made friends easily, he influenced people quite strongly. So – just by talking to people. He would say, ‘Well, there’s some interesting stuff going on down at Powick, you ought to go and look at it.’ That sort of thing. I think that’s what happened.
The thing was, we were lucky to get that unit because Powick had been run so cheaply before I went there. It demanded large sums of money and in fact the Department of Health had to make a special grant to the regional board to prevent a scandal breaking out – about the state of the slum status of Powick Hospital when I went there. Then we had to ask for further money, something like £50,000, which was quite a large sum on those days, to build this purpose built [LSD] unit.
That money came from the Department of Health?
I think that came directly from the Department of Health, yes…. And I know that **** had a lot to do with that.
***** had that kind of power with the Department?
Um. I’m not sure who was – could well have been. It might have been, yes.
Wondering what the process is. £50,000 must have been a great deal of money back then?
Oh yes.
So you have to apply and he pulls strings, or what?
I talked it over with him, I said ‘If we’re going to continue with this thing we must have a unit’ … and he said, ‘Well, you know, sketch out what you think would be appropriate.’ So we designed the building and set out ideas, which of course were somewhat modified by the board, the board’s architects started to work on it. And there it was. It went through remarkably smoothly. I can’t help feeling that ***** somehow put a lot of pressure on somebody somewhere.
Is that what you think now I’ve been asking you these questions, or did you think that at the time?
I’m sure that happened at the time and I’ve always felt that his influence was a considerable one in that respect.
Why would he have that kind of influence?
That I can’t answer. I really don’t know. But there it was.
Can I put a hypothesis to you? I’m going to suggest that ***** was reporting to the government and the intelligence services, and that you were his number one source of information on LSD. And that was the reason you got your money. Would that surprise you?
Not altogether, no. It would have surprised me 6 months ago but the sort of things you’ve been talking to me about, it wouldn’t surprise me at all. His interests were very wide-ranging.
So you think it’s possible you might have been involved in clandestine research into the use of LSD as an aid to interrogation without being aware of it?
It’s quite possible but nobody ever approached me directly, so it’s a bit of a closed field to me, really. With hindsight, with the view of what you and other people have been telling me over the last few years, it’s surprising that they didn’t approach me
I wonder if they did in their own little way, since you were the number one person at the time, the thing to do would be to send someone to visit you and say ‘how’s your work going?’
Yes. Well, quite possible. I just don’t know
Was ***** excited by LSD?
Oh very much so. He was excited with all new things. There was so much that was going on at the time … He was a man who was excited by everything that was new in the pharmacological field. And I think he saw LSD primarily from the pharmacological point of view.
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Tags: Abreaction, Albert Hoffman, Aldous Huxley, Bill Ladell, Brainwashing, CIA, Cyril Cunningham, Deep Narcosis Therapy, Department of Health, Dr Ronald Sandison, ECT, Ewen Cameron, Geschickter, Harold Abramson, Joint Intelligence Committee, LSD, LSD Therapy, MI5, MI6, Mind Control, Porton Down, Psilocybin, R Gordon Wasson, Ritalin, Sandoz, Sensory Deprivation, Sodium Pentothal, The Doors of Perception, The Society for Human Ecology, Timothy Leary, Truth drugs, William Sargant, World Health Organisation
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